Comments on: “Overthrowing” Science? http://spudislunarresources.nss.org/blog/overthrowing-science/ Fri, 03 Aug 2018 06:04:06 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=4.9.8 By: billgamesh http://spudislunarresources.nss.org/blog/overthrowing-science/#comment-4230 Mon, 05 Jan 2015 22:08:54 +0000 http://spudislunarresources.nss.org/blog/?p=1099#comment-4230 It may not be overthrowing science but it seems that tomorrow the media will be trying to overthrow physics. Or at least that part of physics the rocket equation is part of. Landing an empty rocket stage on a barge is being shouted from the mountain tops as the beginning of a new age. One comment I recently read compared it to being as significant as the Wright brothers first flight. Wow. The claim that a whole new era of reusable rockets is beginning is exposed as a flim flam when the required unobtanium and wishalloy is found absent from the story.

A little research shows the Space Shuttle not only had completely reusable first stage boosters but also returned it’s upper stage engines- engines far more powerful and efficient than the hobby rocket. Claiming such a breakthrough is just as bizarre as calling a suborbital tourist conveyance a “space ship.” In fact, even calling the destination of this mediocre lift vehicle a “space station” is not really valid in my view because Low Earth Orbit is not really space- not since humankind moved on to higher domains. Spacecraft and space platforms should be defined as differing from Spaceships and Space Stations in the same way fiberglass canoes and tents differ from ocean going ships and hi-rise buildings.

LEO has about as much in common with space as a catfish pond does with the North Atlantic. The idea of shuttling small loads into LEO and assembling larger items to travel onward and upward was very popular for several decades but the reality was found to be not so wonderful. The closest useful site for human beings to go in space is Geostationary Earth Orbit (GEO) and is an order of magnitude higher above the surface of our planet. GEO has no protective layer like LEO to keep solar events from dosing astronauts with radiation. So the only human constructs to be found hovering 22,236 miles above us are communications relay stations. Satellites. They don’t last forever and cannot be repaired so this ring around the Earth is slowly turning into a junkyard of space debris.

An event as significant as the Wright brothers first flight would actually be to go somewhere beyond LEO in a true Spaceship or the positioning of a true Space Station somewhere above LEO. Without unobtanium or wishalloy to overthrow the laws of physics this means those ships and stations, for several reasons, are going to come from the Moon.

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By: Joe http://spudislunarresources.nss.org/blog/overthrowing-science/#comment-4225 Mon, 05 Jan 2015 12:58:34 +0000 http://spudislunarresources.nss.org/blog/?p=1099#comment-4225 You can, of course refer to it anyway you want (still a free country), but Ehricke’s 1958 proposal to use expended Atlas tanks is well documented and is curiously not even mentioned in the history article you linked.

As far as wiki goes, I believe anyone can edit their articles. You could change it to read that Bugs Bunny originated the concept. Would not prove that he did.

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By: billgamesh http://spudislunarresources.nss.org/blog/overthrowing-science/#comment-4223 Mon, 05 Jan 2015 04:47:38 +0000 http://spudislunarresources.nss.org/blog/?p=1099#comment-4223 If we get hit by an asteroid or comet or suffer a global pandemic then depending on the result we may be back in the dark ages herding goats…..or worse. Or extinct. Since Dr. Spudis is commenting on movies I will put my recommendation in for “The Road.” No sunlight for a couple years and there is no food and very quickly the only people left are cannibals. The movie was so incredibly depressing they kept it from being released and messed with it trying to make it more “entertaining” but did not have much luck. Too real.

People think it cannot happen but they are so wrong. I have personally seen what a category V super hurricane can do up close (Hugo 1989). Civilization is far more fragile than we think. Humankind seems to think they are in complete control of their destiny. It’s not true. According to the genetic record our species almost went extinct once already 72,000 years ago; in the big scheme of things we are here by a flip of the coin that was tossed quite recently. The most recent Godzilla film was criticized for inferring that no matter what happens “nature” will take care of us and everything will turn out alright. I guess momma nature did not like the dinosaurs because there are no Godzilla’s protecting us except in the film industry.

We need to get some survival colonies established off-world and the Moon is the first place to go.

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By: billgamesh http://spudislunarresources.nss.org/blog/overthrowing-science/#comment-4222 Mon, 05 Jan 2015 02:07:38 +0000 http://spudislunarresources.nss.org/blog/?p=1099#comment-4222 What is obvious is that we can’t ask either one of them who first came up with the idea at Peenemunde. And since calling it “Ehricke’s Wet Workshop Concept” is not what is in the history books and will confuse others, I am sorry but I am going to have to keep associating it with who everyone else does (unless you can change the wiki entry). I will give credit to Ehricke for promoting hydrogen while von Braun favored more conservative propellents.

I notice there is now an entry on the wiki page concerning a proposed Lagrange “Skylab II” using SLS components. There is no mention of what happens when the first X-class flare hits it. I can see such a station in lunar orbit where it has better access to lunar water radiation shielding- brought up by robots- but why a Langrange location? Because the Moon is verboten?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wet_workshop

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By: Joe http://spudislunarresources.nss.org/blog/overthrowing-science/#comment-4221 Sun, 04 Jan 2015 22:28:37 +0000 http://spudislunarresources.nss.org/blog/?p=1099#comment-4221 That was obviously meant to say Project Horizon.

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By: Joe http://spudislunarresources.nss.org/blog/overthrowing-science/#comment-4217 Sun, 04 Jan 2015 21:24:00 +0000 http://spudislunarresources.nss.org/blog/?p=1099#comment-4217 OK. I will take your 1959 and raise you 1958:

http://www.friends-partners.org/mwade/craft/outpost.htm

If you look into the details of Project Orion, you will also find that Ehricke had inputs.

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By: billgamesh http://spudislunarresources.nss.org/blog/overthrowing-science/#comment-4215 Sun, 04 Jan 2015 21:21:02 +0000 http://spudislunarresources.nss.org/blog/?p=1099#comment-4215 Computers are not strictly a 20th century invention. One of my first jobs in the military was performing turret maintenance on tanks and inside the M-48A5 (only a few left in 1980) was a mechanical ballistic computer and that technology goes way back. It did have an electric motor to turn the gears though.

“By the time the government killed the project in 1842, they had given Babbage over £17,000, without receiving a working engine. What Babbage did not, or was unwilling to, recognize was that the government was interested in economically produced tables, not the engine itself.[5]”

Filthy lucre. Where would we be now if science had Babbage machines from the mid-19th century on?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Difference_engine

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By: Mark http://spudislunarresources.nss.org/blog/overthrowing-science/#comment-4214 Sun, 04 Jan 2015 19:39:19 +0000 http://spudislunarresources.nss.org/blog/?p=1099#comment-4214 Does the development of science progress along a linear path? I was quite taken by the Antikythera mechanism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism) though I’m not sure if one would call it a computer.

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By: billgamesh http://spudislunarresources.nss.org/blog/overthrowing-science/#comment-4213 Sun, 04 Jan 2015 18:55:22 +0000 http://spudislunarresources.nss.org/blog/?p=1099#comment-4213 I will be more than happy to attribute it to Ehricke if you can cite something that actually says so.

Since Skylab did fly and……. “As far back as the Peenemunde days, von Braun and his colleagues had speculated on converting an empty stage into a shelter for a small crew. In 1959 the idea was put forth in the report of a study called Project Horizon,-”

http://history.nasa.gov/SP-4208/ch2.htm

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By: Joe http://spudislunarresources.nss.org/blog/overthrowing-science/#comment-4211 Sun, 04 Jan 2015 16:53:47 +0000 http://spudislunarresources.nss.org/blog/?p=1099#comment-4211 “I am waiting for a biopic about Mr. Brown that does not spare the details of his involvement- as a Nazi SS officer- in the deaths of thousands of slave laborers in the Dora rocket factory. I consider his wet workshop concept to be a critical requirement for any human spaceflight program and his contribution to our nation cannot be overstated.”

I assume by “Mr. Brown” you mean Werner Von Braun. I am going to leave the issue of assessing blame for Nazi atrocities to others, but Von Braun did not originate the concept of using expended fuel tanks as habitable volume. That honor goes to another Peenemunde alumnus Krafft Ehricke (yes I know I have mentioned him quite a bit, but he generated a number of concepts – many of them useful – for which he doesn’t get credit).

Check out the link below:

http://www.krafftaehricke.com/ehricke_outpost_1.php

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