Credentials first:

– While younger than you, I also lived through the period as a child (for whatever simply living through it is worth).

– When I graduated from college (in engineering) in 1981, I went to work at the Johnson Space Center working initially in the EVA hardware area for the Space Shuttle Program.

– I then moved into EVA operations, where I participated in developing the techniques for assembly/maintenance of the ISS.

– After a number of years at that I moved into systems engineering, where I worked on (among a number of other things) Constellation Systems (until it’s cancellation).

– Since we are keeping score that comes to about 30 years.

– While I have also read some science fiction, I have also researched the period in question (not just reading someone else’s books but reading news articles and editorials from the period).

Now on to ideas:

You presented, your version of history as per your “recollection”.

I presented mine based on both my recollections and reading news reports, editorials and poles from the period. My ideas on the subject may differ from yours but they have already been plainly stated in my original post.

I trust that satisfies your curiosity.

Wernher von Braun was, in fact, an SS officer. He was given a commission by Heinrich Himmler as part of an SS effort to gain control of the A-4/V-2 production program. The SS was, indeed, put in charge of production of the V-2 at the underground Mittelbau factory under the notorious Hans Kammler. Von Braun described the conditions in the Mittelbau plant as “hellish.” There was not much he could do to change them.

Von Braun remained a civilian working for the German Army at Peenemünde. He held what was essentially an honorary commission in the SS. He did join the Nazi Party. But that is no surprise given his job as technical director for the A-4/V-2 project. Bear in mind that von Braun was from the Prussian aristocracy (he was Baron von Braun), and that his father, Magnus von Braun, served as Minister of Agriculture in the Weimar Republic. Magnus returned to Silesia when the Nazis took power in 1933.

I met Wernher von Braun twice, literally bumping into him the first time at the Apollo 17 launch. We met under less awkward circumstances three years later at a Washington Aero Club luncheon. He was both gracious and charming.

I knew Ernst Stuhlinger, von Braun’s longtime friend, colleague and biographer. Dr. Stuhlinger and I talked at length about the war years and about the von Braun rocket team’s culpability and moral responsibility for the slave labor deaths in the Mittelwerk plant, as well as for the deaths on the receiving end of the V-2 campaign. He also addressed these topics in his book, “Wernher von Braun, Crusader for Space.”

Basically, Dr. Stuhlinger told me that unless one has lived under a homicidal dictatorship, it is difficult to appreciate what choices von Braun and his colleagues faced. “If we complained or refused to cooperate, our families would be arrested as an ‘incentive’ for us to keep quiet. Under those circumstances, you tend to keep your mouth shut.” Stuhlinger noted that Party membership was mandatory for the Peenemünde leadership, including himself. As you say, there were varying degrees of enthusiasm for the Nazis among the group. Some joined the Party quite willingly. Others did what they had to do to survive.

Bob Ward’s book, “Dr. Space,” also addresses the topic of individual and collective guilt as it relates to Nazi Germany.

So does Klaus Fischer in his book, “Nazi Germany: A New History.”

Of course, Michael Neufeld takes a very dim view of von Braun and his colleagues in his books.

I should add that Sergei Korolev, the Soviet space mastermind, was a member of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union and chaired CPSU cell meetings at his OKB-1 design bureau. One colleague described him as a committed Communist, although another OKB-1 colleague, Konstantin Feoktistov (one of the Voskhod cosmonauts and a spacecraft designer) later said that “everybody hated the Party and the system” but had little choice in the matter. BTW, Feoktistov went against the grain by refusing to join the Party. Apparently he was too valuable to punish.

Sergei Korolev also helped create several ICBMs designed to deliver nuclear warheads on the United States. Was that immoral? Should he have refused? Unlikely, given that he had already been wrongfully sent to the Gulag under Stalin in the 30s (and nearly died).

While I read many comments about von Braun serving an evil dictatorship, I have never seen any criticism of Korolev for serving another evil dictatorship. After all, his first ‘boss’ was Stalin. Korolev served Stalin faithfully and supposedly admired him. Yet, all I ever read about Korolev is praise with no mention of his relationship with Stalin.

Given Sergei Korolev’s role in the conquest of space, there is much to praise.

Diito for Wernher von Braun.

Did the good outweigh the bad? What will they say 100 years from now?

One last thought …

I knew several of the Avro Canada engineers who came to NASA’s Space Task Group in 1959 following the demise of the CF-105 Arrow. Two of them worked directly with von Braun. Both of them had served in the RCAF during WWII, and both of them were not very keen on the man before they met him. But both of them were impressed by his intelligence, his charm and his leadership once they started working with him. In short, they grew to like and admire their former enemy.

Bill Mellberg

I’m 68. I lived through this period, y’know? I spent 20 years of my life working at JPL and Rockwell’s Space Division. I’ve read a whole bunch of science fiction over the years. I’ve had time to reflect.

So, since you don’t like my ideas, share with us some wiser ones. And please list your credentials.

I was thinking there are three characters created by Hollywood based on real life people: The pirate, the cowboy, and the spaceman. But they never existed as portrayed as swashbuckling arr matey, roaming the wild west with a six-shooter and 10-gallon hat, or zipping around the galaxy visiting worlds where everyone speaks english. Many people confuse fiction with reality, and probably much of our history has fictional aspects.

While watching that youtube episode, an advertisement pops up: “16.1% 2014 Annuity Return. True investor returns with no risk. Find out how with our free report.” Too bad it’s not a lunar mining company. But wait, if such were to become reality, there may be some hucksters pulling gimmicks like they did in the wild west of 1800s.

Assuming that by Mr. Brown you mean Von Braun, it is true that all the members of the Peenemunde Rocket Group were members of the Nazi Party (with varying degrees of enthusiasm). However, Von Braun being a member of the SS is another matter. It could be true, but it is unlikely such an honor (and that is what the Nazi’s would have considered it) would be given him as he had been known to consort with Jews. According to Willey Ley, Von Braun helped get him out of Germany, for instance.

If being skeptical of that means you think I am “practicing cognitive dissonance” so be it.

In any case your assertions do make a point that it is a bad idea to put anyone on too high a pedestal. You are not doing them no favors as being on a pedestal automatically means someone will try to knock you off it.

I do agree that the vision of O’Neill provides an excellant plan of colonizing space.
Why settle worlds when we can build them?

Sounds like something a truly advanced species would do.

As for the NewSpace crowd, some also want Mars (don’t make me name names!).
But their visions are just too large for their own good.
The only way they can think of to go there is via the Apollo-style.

And I agree that news of life elsewhere, while it may cause a brief stir in people (mostly the fundamentalist types), will quickly be regarded with irrelevancy.

What we need right now is a different voice to explain what’s really important and practical.
We need a revolution in how we carry out our space program.

“A little revolution now and then is a healthy thing, don’t you think?”
– Captain Ramius, “The Hunt for Red October”